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toppstuff
Original Poster
8,568 posts
117 months
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Johnboy Mac said: Oh, I could see this thread run & run!  P.s. must admit it's more fun hearing what MSC (the only cheater in F1) haters have to spout about. Everyone tries it on. Its all about degrees of cheating. And it does not take a lot of research to establish that Schumi has had the benefit of cheating to a factor of 10 compared to the other shenanigans mentioned here. I don't think there has ever been a more systematic abuse of the sport than we had during the Schumi era. And I am not a hater, far from it. But that is the way it was and its pretty bad form to pretend it did'nt happen.
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Johnboy Mac
2,666 posts
48 months
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toppstuff said: Everyone tries it on. Its all about degrees of cheating.
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MGJohn
6,923 posts
53 months
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... and MSC's Ferraris always had a larger engine than the rules allowed ... PHACT! Indeed, although never actually proven, one of their more succesful engines actually had 15.75 cylinders whilst other teams struggled on with only 10 or 12. Now that's really unfair. Plus Schumacher had an exact body double driver who was actually far superior to him and all the other drivers. No wonder the two of them won everything. Plus, all those FIA assists and never once or twice calling FOUL and showing them a red card as it would merge with teh colours of the team and thus go unnoticed. Plus not to forget that the FIA bunged lady luck more than a few million to ensure that luck was always on their side and their chosen team and son was always victorious. That's how this lifelong observer of the beautiful game ( and Motor Sport ) saw things... Look up in the sky , is it a ... oink, oink, flap flap. Terms, conditions and Fan Boys need not apply. ..
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vonuber
4,122 posts
35 months
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toppstuff said: Everyone tries it on. Its all about degrees of cheating. Really now, degrees is it. So how much is ok?
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toppstuff
Original Poster
8,568 posts
117 months
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vonuber said: toppstuff said: Everyone tries it on. Its all about degrees of cheating. Really now, degrees is it. So how much is ok? Up until now I've been trying to not be too specific, but really, come on now, people here do actually know what MSC and his team got away with on numerous occasions...don't they? Are people really that unaware? I know it was a few years ago, but come on. It's not that hard to figure out. A bit of skulduggery here and there has always been a part of F1, but MSC and his team(s) were involved in cheating on an epic scale. It makes McLarens affair with the Ferrari Haynes manual look like a play school prank.. They are simply not comparable.
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Johnboy Mac
2,666 posts
48 months
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vonuber said: Really now, degrees is it. So how much is ok? As much as you like provided you don't get caught and if you do, just don't embarrass or upset the F1 circus too much, it would seem. After all, they all eat from the same pie and are not too concerned about some crumbs or table manners when it comes to sharing the loot. Harsh? Maybe, but as Bernie says they all cheat. So, it's just swings & roundabouts. P.s The way I view it too is, if MSC himself managed to turnover something like €700m+, wtf did F1 turnover? MSC was and still is very good for F1, make no mistake.
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Johnboy Mac
2,666 posts
48 months
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toppstuff said: but MSC and his team(s) were involved in cheating Ah, nice to see you have mentioned the team s. Good too that you are getting a bit of balance to the whole cheating debate and admitting that all drivers & teams cheat. Respect to you.
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AreOut
327 posts
31 months
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hairykrishna said: Everyone's entitled to an opinion and all that but Ralf better than Michael? Does the person who looks after you know that you post on PH? sorry but he won 3 races in 2001 in a car that has retired 19 times(both him and Montoya), out of total 34 races for both that season he finished 18 points in front of Juan Pablo, msc had whom as a teammate? Irvine, Rubens or Massa...and they were always ordered to let him pass IMHO Ralf would do better in these last three seasons and he would be much closer to Nico than msc is
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SRT77
509 posts
88 months
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IMHO says it all.OMG Ralf??? LOL etc.
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AreOut
327 posts
31 months
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I have different way of estimating how good a driver is. The number of titles in a superior car being the first driver just doesn't tick any boxes for me.
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rsole
570 posts
57 months
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AreOut said: I have different way of estimating how good a driver is. The number of titles in a superior car being the first driver just doesn't tick any boxes for me. Most (i suspect) of the F1 world champs through history drove in the best cars available at the time. I guess there are exceptions. Someone will be along shortly who knows more than me to confirm....didn't Fangio car swap and turf a teammate from his car so he could carry on? The best drivers gravitate towards the best teams = race wins = titles - non?
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AreOut
327 posts
31 months
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it's (mostly) true, but there is a huge difference between 50s and 90s, + Alonso has almost won the 2010 WDC in an inferior Ferrari car (just if his team didn't f*ck up the strategy), and he won one of his WDCs in a Renault that in a last race was good 1.5-2 seconds slower than a Ferrari! Senna and Prost had each other as teammates, and almost all drivers except msc had some competition at least in the team. He just had none, and the difference between Ferrari and other cars(regarding speed AND reliability) was just HUGE.
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Johnboy Mac
2,666 posts
48 months
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AreOut said: and almost all drivers except msc had some competition at least in the team. He just had none, and the difference between Ferrari and other cars(regarding speed AND reliability) was just HUGE. Yes, all his team mates were rather crap: Nelson Piquet Rubens Barrichello Felipe Massa and these too Andrea de Cesaris Johnny Herbert Eddie Irvine. And of course Ferrari's were the best cars on the grid before MSC joined them having won their last Drivers Championship in 1979 and Constructors Title in 1983!
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AreOut
327 posts
31 months
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remember its not only msc that came to Ferrari from Benetton...
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Johnboy Mac
2,666 posts
48 months
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AreOut said: remember its not only msc that came to Ferrari from Benetton... Yes, you can blame MSC on that too! That boy has a lot to answer for, dragging people from team to team. You'd think those mature & intelligent men would know better! 
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SRT77
509 posts
88 months
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Considering how almightily crap Schumacher was it is quite remarkable how he managed to influence so many people - team principals, tyre manufacturers, other drivers, the FIA. The man must have some serious hidden evil powers.
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Moley RUFC
2,375 posts
59 months
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Well done the producer of footwear I say. Great result, even the most successful, consistent racing driver of all time needs some luck sometimes.
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superkartracer
6,697 posts
92 months
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rsole
570 posts
57 months
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superkartracer said: Christ - love that through the swimming pool - mad!!
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hairykrishna
8,995 posts
73 months
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AreOut said: I have different way of estimating how good a driver is. The number of titles in a superior car being the first driver just doesn't tick any boxes for me. Fair enough. Go and find a video of Spain 1996 or Hungary in 1998. How do drives like that effect your estimation?
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